How B2B Marketers Should Define a Company's "Audience" w/Jason Widup

WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:07.240 Welcome back to the attention podcast, where you learn how to gain and retain 2 00:00:07.320 --> 00:00:11.560 the attention of your buyers to grow an audience. I'm Dan Sanchez with sweet 3 00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:14.640 fish, and today I talked to Jason Widdup, who is the VP of 4 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:20.440 marketing at Metadata, about how B Tob Marketers should define a company's quote unquote, 5 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:24.079 audience, audience. In the interview we talked about how other marketers are 6 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:27.839 to currently defining it, based on a Linkedin Bull I posted recently, we 7 00:00:27.879 --> 00:00:32.320 talked about Jason's definition of audience and community, and then we discuss the future 8 00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:37.280 of audience growth, the community building and BB Marketing in general. All right, 9 00:00:37.359 --> 00:00:43.880 let's get into it, Jason, welcome to the show, based and 10 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:46.520 thanks for having me. Got To be here. So this is one of 11 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:49.640 those episodes that I wish I would have done at the beginning of this show, 12 00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:53.640 because eventually, you you launch a podcast on the topic and you think, 13 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:57.359 when you speak about the topic, that everybody's thinking about the same thing. 14 00:00:57.439 --> 00:01:02.320 And after interviewing guests after guests, I started finding out that I define 15 00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:07.439 audience differently than everybody else. So naturally I put out a poll on Linkedin 16 00:01:07.079 --> 00:01:11.920 with probab four different definitions of an audience than even in the in the text 17 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:15.519 I put even more to kind of show like a full range from all the 18 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:18.599 way and this is the pull. These are the poll answers asked. How 19 00:01:18.599 --> 00:01:23.599 do you define a company's quote unquote audience? It's those who, and my 20 00:01:23.640 --> 00:01:29.319 answers were, are aware of you, prefer you, engage with you regularly 21 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:34.920 or officially opt into your content. Those are the four options and the results 22 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:38.959 are thirty percent, and I'm I'm kind of rounding a little bit, but 23 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:42.400 thirty percent said aware of you. I was shocked because I'm on the other 24 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:46.959 end. Yeah, yeah, about eight percent said prefer you, so smaller 25 00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:51.239 they're. Forty two percent is said engage with you regularly, and that's kind 26 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:53.040 of where I'm at. It's the camp of what I voted for. And 27 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:57.280 about twenty one percent said opted into your content, which I can see the 28 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:00.760 case for that too. I thought the pole results were interesting. Is that 29 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:05.560 showed that across the least my audience, my small bed be marketing heavy on 30 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:09.479 this as side audience. They were very different opinions and the comments went along 31 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:14.639 as far as why they justified their opinions. So it wasn't like a loose 32 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:17.840 opinion, like people were pretty strong on it and of course a number of 33 00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:22.159 people made the the claim that's like, well, audience is such a loose 34 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:25.759 term. It's like love, you know, there's brotherly love and there's affectionate 35 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:29.479 love. There's many different kinds of love. I love my big mack was 36 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:32.400 but not in the same way I love my wife, you know. Sure. 37 00:02:32.439 --> 00:02:37.280 So, like like, audience is too broad and it needs it needs 38 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:38.800 another adjective in order to dive it down. So those were kind of the 39 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:43.039 some of the things that I've been exploring and, Jason, I'm so excited 40 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:45.800 actually have this conversation with you. I know you're this is something that you 41 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:50.120 guys have thought about over at Metadata. So trying to throw it over to 42 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:53.639 you, like how have you defined audience and what do you think about where 43 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:57.680 where the definitions are at as far as what people think about it? Yeah, 44 00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:00.759 I love this because I like to get into the words right, I 45 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:04.360 like to get to like the words and what they mean and can I did 46 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:06.879 the same thing with demand generation, you know, a while ago. But 47 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:08.719 really with this one, the way I think about it is, and I'll 48 00:03:08.759 --> 00:03:12.719 talk about why I think some of the pole results are the way they are. 49 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:16.240 If you think of audience, like the word audience is something that we 50 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:22.960 actually haven't really been using as Bab marketers until recently. I don't know if 51 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:27.439 it's five years ago. We usually say like, when we're usually talking about 52 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:30.319 what this audience is, it's usually our database. You know, that's how 53 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:32.800 you here. It is like, Oh, it's my database, or you 54 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:36.719 hear like it's my followers, you know what I mean. You get these 55 00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:43.080 like countable older school definition. They're this very attributable you know. And but 56 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:46.639 if we really think about the word audience, when do you use the word 57 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:49.960 audience? You use it when it you talking about a show, right. 58 00:03:50.039 --> 00:03:55.039 You're using it when you talking about an audience like of that wants to see 59 00:03:55.080 --> 00:04:01.879 your stuff. And I think that's where we sometimes get muddied is think of 60 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:06.639 it from like a show's perspective. If I'm an audience for I'll just you 61 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:13.000 the nerdy one big Bang Theory on TV, I want that content right. 62 00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:15.960 It's not like I'm sitting in front of my computer screen and I'm browsing a 63 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:18.439 website and are forcing that show on me to watch it right. I'm seeking 64 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:26.519 it out, and so we base our audience definition more on that than the 65 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:31.800 traditional like my database or my followers. And so for us what it means 66 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:41.519 is several things. We've got several audiences. We have our traditional followers on 67 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:46.399 or connections on Linkedin, and at Metadata. We look at that from the 68 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:48.959 company page and then there's several of us that are very prominent on Linkedin. 69 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:53.519 We basically add those up. I'll get into more about how we how we 70 00:04:53.560 --> 00:04:56.600 measure it kind of more in a second. But speaking to these Poles, 71 00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:00.480 I think that's why we see the O are aware and I think that's more 72 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:02.839 of the older school definition of like, Oh yeah, they've seen some of 73 00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:06.800 my stuff or they're in my database or they're following me. Doesn't necessarily mean 74 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:11.199 that they're trying to draw themselves into your content. And then on the at 75 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:13.360 on the back end of that, the OPT in too, at twenty one 76 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:15.720 percent. So a full half of the people are, I think, in 77 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:19.279 this older school like awareness and opt in, and the opt in is again 78 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:23.959 my database. Right. So that's audience. So then what do we call 79 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:28.160 these other people? Right there were targeting. That's different to me. I'm 80 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:31.720 targeting prospects. I don't consider that an all. I mean this is where 81 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:34.480 the turns get money, right because, like all the tools are get audience, 82 00:05:34.759 --> 00:05:39.920 exactly the tools that maybe even mine, like probably my own Metadata, 83 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:43.560 is like you build an audience, you know what I mean? So you 84 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:47.399 started calling an audience, but what that really is it's a target list of 85 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:51.079 prospects based on your best ICP or reach o. You know what, however, 86 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:56.680 you're defining them, and so creating that separation, I think is really 87 00:05:56.680 --> 00:06:00.000 important, because it's like pull versus push. You know, my true audience 88 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:02.800 are the people that want my stuff, want to hear from me, are 89 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:06.920 seeking it out, and then the push one is the people that I'm targeting 90 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:11.360 for my platform because I think there's a reason that they should buy us. 91 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:14.560 So that's why we think about it and I generally, when I think of 92 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:16.000 the audience, and the one I came in with my mind even starting the 93 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:18.839 show, was kind of like public speaking, right, you have a crowd 94 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:21.920 yep that's listening to what you have to say, some engage, some dough 95 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:28.600 but they're generally listening and taking notes and engage, like actively consuming the content. 96 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:31.399 They've chosen to be there exactly and even better, as if there are 97 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:34.160 an audience of rage, like raving fans, right, and then you think 98 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:38.199 of a concert where they're like Russian the stage, the hands are up. 99 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:41.160 Yeah, you know, hopefully you can turn them from just sitting there passively 100 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:44.160 engaging to raving fans, and they can't. They like reaching out just so 101 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:46.839 they can touch your fingers. Maybe. You know. That's like the dream 102 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:51.120 of having a small crowd of those guys, right, at least that's what 103 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:54.920 I had in my head. So it's kind of interesting to hear your perspective 104 00:06:54.959 --> 00:07:00.000 on is people that are actively going after your content, actively looking for it. 105 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:03.959 Like I get encouraged when someone's like the only reason why I log into 106 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:08.560 Linkedin's most of the time is just to see your post. Right. Yep, 107 00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:11.639 that's the kind of fans and audience that you want. They're looking for 108 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:14.360 you and if they don't see you in a while, they'll go search for 109 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:16.319 you and make sure they're seeing your content. Go like some posts. That's 110 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:19.399 an audience in my mind. Yeah. So, Yep, it sounds like 111 00:07:19.399 --> 00:07:25.120 you guys are similar. Yeah, and this actually extends into community to write. 112 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:27.839 So, like a lot of us, are also building a community, 113 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:30.360 and so now we have to define. Well, what's the difference between your 114 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:32.439 audience and your community? I don't know yet, honestly. So I don't 115 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:35.519 know if we have right now. We don't have a different definition for these 116 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:38.920 two. So for us it's kind of the same thing. I think we 117 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:43.240 call it more our community because we are trying to build a community of demand, 118 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:46.519 gend professionals and so, but here's the way we look at it. 119 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:49.680 At metadata. The first one is a traditional like I mentioned, we've got 120 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:56.399 followers on like linkedin channels. Right we grew our company page and then myself, 121 00:07:56.399 --> 00:08:00.199 Mark Hubert Gil our president or our CEO, and our president, really 122 00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:03.879 Olivier. We're all on social quite a bit and we are continually using it 123 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:07.439 to like build our company audience as well, and so we look at those, 124 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:09.600 we add those up. There's duplication, of course, a lot in 125 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:13.040 there. We add those up, though. That's one part of it. 126 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:18.959 The next part are people who have specifically requested to hear from us. So 127 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:24.560 this is more that opt in one where they've been on our website, they 128 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:28.439 engaged with content, and then there's specific signups that say please tell me when 129 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:33.039 new content comes out and so if they register for that, then we consider 130 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:35.879 okay, they're in our community now, and then they get weekly emails about 131 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:41.600 new stuff we're putting out. And really it's it's those things, you know 132 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:43.600 what I mean? It's really those two things that we kind of add up 133 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:48.960 and we consider those our community. And where do these other? So along 134 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:50.639 with the optens, we also have like our event, our big demand event 135 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:56.360 that we did last October. People are registered for that. They automatically enter 136 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:01.840 into that community kind of list or group that we have. So our plan 137 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:05.679 ultimately is what you do want to place. We want to give our community 138 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:09.799 members a way to engage and network and share and, you know, engage 139 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:11.559 with our content more in our events. We're just not sure how to do 140 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:16.000 that yet. So we're thinking of technology as a later stage, saying for 141 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:20.480 us to get into around community and audience, but first let's just see. 142 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:22.879 Do we have one? You don't mean like do we have a community who 143 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:26.600 wants to engage? And so that's kind of how we're taking audience and kind 144 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:28.639 of community as well. So the way you're measuring it is kind of adding 145 00:09:28.759 --> 00:09:33.120 up your aggregate followers across toy, your linkedin profiles of people who are doing 146 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:37.279 that actively for the company, email, optens and event attenptees. Is that 147 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:41.600 kind of like the three main prongs? Yep, yeah, it's funny. 148 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:46.399 I actually define community is different than audience. But I go back to Seth 149 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:48.919 Goden's book tribes, you know, a Golden Oldie right as far as a 150 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:52.440 marketing but because like one of my first big books I read as a marketer. 151 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:56.879 I like the way he defines the tribe. Is kind of like both 152 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:01.360 of them coming together to find the audiences. Essentially a company or individual speaking 153 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:05.279 to a specific group of people and they're consuming it. It's I consider it 154 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:09.320 to be an active audience if they're communicating back to that person or company. 155 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:13.039 Active. It's going both ways. Yeah, but that audience is not talking 156 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:16.639 to each other. When they do start talking to each other without and it 157 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:20.879 can be facilitated by the leader or not, but when they start talking to 158 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:24.159 each other, that's community. Yeah. Like. So if you can get 159 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:28.759 your audience to start cooperating together around your the principles you're throwing out there, 160 00:10:30.120 --> 00:10:33.519 like now, you have community and communities formed by themselves all the time. 161 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:35.919 Right, that happens. I'll read it and Cora and all kinds of sites. 162 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:39.159 Discords really popular right now. Communities are out there and you can build 163 00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:43.080 an audience from an existing community. Yeah, men, obviously it's even better 164 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:46.519 if they overlap, if you're doing both. It's better for audience growth and 165 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:50.240 for your community, but that's how I kind of defined them separately. Yeah, 166 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:52.200 I like that too. I actually like that. That makes a lot 167 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:54.159 of sense. It's kind of like audience and then one step further and aid. 168 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:56.480 That makes a lot of sense to the kind of self engaging their self, 169 00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:58.919 organizing. Maybe you know what I mean. It's like, yeah, 170 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:03.080 it could be something where you step out and that thing keeps going. Really 171 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:07.919 it was interesting too, is I'm starting to see communities for sale. You 172 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:09.080 don't mean it's so now. It's a new, interesting way. We don't 173 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:13.000 have to get that's a whole other maybe topic, but you know, people 174 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:16.039 selling communities now to which is a very interesting thing. I don't know if 175 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:18.120 that'll be a good thing or not, but we'll see how that plays out. 176 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:22.759 I think it'll be a good thing because I think it's just what's inevitable. 177 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:26.639 Like I honestly I kind of see an audience being the next biggest form 178 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:30.600 of leverage. HMM, you know, capital is a big form of leverage, 179 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:33.159 but I think the people who have the audience over the next ten, 180 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:35.279 twenty years will be the ones with leverage. Yeah, which is why they're 181 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:39.600 early, I'd say, not even the early majority, but like the innovators 182 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:43.440 are playing with this now. I'd say they're early adopters. Are Now starting 183 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:46.799 to prepare to try to grow an audience or require one. Yeah, just 184 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:50.960 like it was like, I guess, even with tech and the SASS model. 185 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:54.080 That was big and people were just acquiring it to stay in the market. 186 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:56.799 Yeah, people are acquiring it now and a lot of people will just 187 00:11:56.840 --> 00:12:01.720 be going audience first. Companies in building an audience and then launching a product. 188 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:03.440 Right, that's starting to see that happens. Yeah, actually, I 189 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:07.360 know one right now. Yeah, yeah, I think the folks over at 190 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:09.679 hype cycles, like Justin and Julia. I think that's kind of what they're 191 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:11.240 doing right now, is they're trying to like, what's the audience first, 192 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:15.159 while we're building this product, and then when we have that launched, we 193 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:18.000 automatically have an audience. And I kind of learned some of the stuff. 194 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:22.440 You know, my background is way, primarily in operations. And so some 195 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:24.080 of the stuff this I don't want to call the softer side of marketing, 196 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:26.960 because now I fully I'm a fully bought in, but I didn't have a 197 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:30.360 lot of experience with this stuff. And so, you know, I remember 198 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:33.360 one of my first meetings with Dave Gearhart, a year and a half ago, 199 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:35.879 I think, or something like that. She was talking about this to 200 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:37.120 me. He's like, you just need to have your own audience. Then 201 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:41.600 you have and then when you have your audience, it's like you automatically have 202 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:45.080 a set of people to test things against. You don't mean so like you 203 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:48.080 have this tribe or whatever, you know what, this group of people that 204 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:52.720 are favorable to you because you're providing value to them and you get value back. 205 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:54.519 You know what I mean? And as well, and I think that 206 00:12:54.559 --> 00:12:56.480 really resonated with me, because I's like, well, who am I gonna 207 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:58.000 you know, who did I test the stuff with? You know, and 208 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:01.919 if you have a friendly audience that's already there, that that's it, you 209 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:05.120 know, and if they're mostly people that could potentially buy your product sometime later 210 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:09.399 down the road, what better place to like test new things, ask questions, 211 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:13.200 get ideas of what will work, and so then, ever since I 212 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.399 had that conversation with them, was like, okay, let's see how we 213 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:18.519 can do this. Yep, audience first, it's a thing. I just 214 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:24.440 interviewed to Kathleen booth who's doing it with her company. They're literally just launching. 215 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:26.320 They have an audience. They're launching their first product into it. Oh 216 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:28.960 Nice, I think it's becoming a thing, but she's she's pretty much an 217 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:31.399 innovator with what she's doing, because I don't see many people doing it. 218 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:35.120 There's probably one book on the topic. Yeah, I went and found it's 219 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:37.279 called the embedded entrepreneur. If you're a big reader, it's a great, 220 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:41.720 great listen on audiobook. Nice, though, he talks a little bit more 221 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:45.600 about finding an existing community, becoming part of the community and then using the 222 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:50.600 community to give you feedback on early mvps and stuff like that. A little 223 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:54.519 different than audience growth, but kind of the same same idea. So, 224 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:58.720 with that mind, like, how are you setting and measuring audience growth goals 225 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:03.240 for metadetic currently? Yeah, the the age old question. How do we 226 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:07.000 where we headed and how do we set those goals? I mean, the 227 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:11.120 thing with us is we're we have a bad habit of like putting a finger 228 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:15.519 in the air when we set goals a little. This just may be because 229 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:18.200 of my background and ops and I just kind of think like I do a 230 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:20.360 little bit of head Maath and like Oh, you know, something like this, 231 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:26.039 and it steered me wrong but right, several times. As an example, 232 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:28.799 so last year when we had our demand conference, was our first one, 233 00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:31.200 you know, it was we had we were too marketers, just, 234 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:35.519 you know, two marketers pulling this thing together, and our CEO asked me 235 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:39.240 like okay, what's our goal? And just I thought about it, I 236 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:43.200 just kind of did some very loose head math. I was like about four 237 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:48.960 thousand and even saving it. Okay, great, and after we achieved I 238 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.000 think forty four hundred, because then I arbitrarily accidentally said change the goal of 239 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:54.919 five thousand. But that's a different story. He came back to me after 240 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.159 we achieved and he's like, you know, my expectation was five hundred. 241 00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:01.360 He's like, and Gil, of anybody knows Gil, like you're never like 242 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:05.840 accidentally setting your goals, you know, like above his. That just doesn't 243 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:07.879 happen. And so we have a kind of an interesting habit of that. 244 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:11.000 But also it's nice about that, as we don't have those past experiences oftentimes. 245 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:13.360 So like put a ceiling on what we're doing. So like, Oh, 246 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:16.240 I have done this in the past and I was only able to do 247 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:20.639 this. That said, because we grew that initial kind of community audience so 248 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:24.480 quickly with that event and then we started adding to it, we're looking at 249 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:28.440 a baseline and then an increase over baseline. So that's really what we're looking 250 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:31.399 for. Is like, okay, where did we start? And then what 251 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:33.039 do we think we can get this to this year? And that's really kind 252 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:35.120 of how we set the goals. was like, okay, we're starting it 253 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:39.200 let's say six thousand sixty five hundred, and we had forty four hundred registers 254 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:41.559 for demand this here. Can we get to above Tenzero, you know, 255 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:46.399 this year and then can you know, and then can we have that extend 256 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:48.240 and grow the community to about Twelvezero, you know? So we just kind 257 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:54.200 of like we're try to be reasonable. Once we understand how community really affects 258 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:58.120 demand, then we'll have a model that we can use. You know what 259 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:00.159 I mean to be like, okay, every x number of people we add 260 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:03.360 turns into like either faster pipeline or, you know what I mean, will 261 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:07.080 hopefully have some day that we can start to use to model it and then 262 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:08.960 once it becomes part of the demand model, then it gets a lot more 263 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:11.519 attention, you know. And so that's kind of how we that's usually how 264 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:15.600 we step through things and that's kind of where we are with with audience today. 265 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:18.399 Are you looking to just grow the same channels larger, like Linkedin, 266 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:22.000 profiles, email list, event, attendance? Are there? You just kind 267 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:26.279 of doubling down on those three? Yes so far, and I think you 268 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:30.000 know what we want to do is we want to double down an event. 269 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:32.960 So we want to do a lot more and a lot very like a lot 270 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:36.120 more varied types of events, and so that's one of the ways that will 271 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:38.960 kind of extend a hybrid in person virtual. That'll be a big part of 272 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:42.120 our strati small, larger, exclusive. You know, we'll do lots of 273 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:47.000 different things. But you know, in terms of the channels, you know, 274 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:49.039 Linkedin is just so you know, we sell the markers right. So 275 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:55.039 like marketers are on Linkedin. It's a great place to like grab grow expand 276 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:59.320 the community. So will primarily be there and at some point we will have 277 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:02.120 a place, you know what I mean, for people to go and it 278 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:04.400 won't just be a community side. I won't be slack. It'll be somewhere 279 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:10.720 that actually hosts content, host events like it actually will be a bigger experiential 280 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:14.000 type of platform when we actually take it there. And so but yeah, 281 00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:15.440 that's kind of how we're that's that's kind of how we're thinking about it right 282 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:19.519 now. So how much currently does owned media contribute to revenue? And we're 283 00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:22.559 are you hoping it's going to be in the future? This one is hard, 284 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:25.799 right. So this one is hard to measure, but we know it 285 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:30.960 works and we do a lot of qualitative measurement on these types of things. 286 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:36.400 So because, like if you go full just straight attribution, if you try 287 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:41.039 and go just straight mathematical attribution, you would probably stop doing podcasts, you 288 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:45.599 would maybe stop doing events because you do you don't know as it causing a 289 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:48.759 cause or effect. You know I mean you, you would focus in on 290 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:52.920 paid search, you know what I mean. It's like your primary channel. 291 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:57.279 And so we know it affects revenue in couple ways. The first way is 292 00:17:57.319 --> 00:18:02.279 the sales reps are happy about it. So when they outbound. What I 293 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:06.000 hear is, Jason, my outbounding is so much easier than I've ever done 294 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:10.119 at any other company because they know who we are, they appreciate our content, 295 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:12.119 they feel like we're in it for them. That take my call, 296 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:17.359 and so that's a big way. We Have Gong trackers actually listen for my 297 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:21.759 name, Mark's name, you know, anything around that where people are mentioning 298 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:25.200 our content or that they follow us or they see us. We use that, 299 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:27.119 you know what I mean. And then we do do the traditional attribution. 300 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:30.440 So like when we do a demand event, there's a sales force campaign 301 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:33.799 and then involved. So we can understand like okay, people that attended. 302 00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:37.920 And this is more influence, right, because I did it influence some deals. 303 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:41.759 But for me, like in terms of the importance. To me, 304 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:48.200 the importance is so high I would never not do this. So, like 305 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:49.839 if somebody came to I, Gil came to me and said I just don't 306 00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:52.359 see the numbers like you hat to show me that this tied to this, 307 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:56.039 I'd be like, let me give you in my notice. If he was 308 00:18:56.119 --> 00:18:57.960 serious, you know, because I was like will never be able to really 309 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:03.440 understand that kind of attribution. You know, what develops trust, getting to 310 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:07.240 know us, that social proof, you know, I mean the word of 311 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:11.240 mouth, and that's really what the content this own media really does for us. 312 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:15.319 And our strategy is really educational content. Our podcast is called demand Gen 313 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:18.440 you, we try and teach people how to do things outside of using tools. 314 00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:19.880 Right, so it's like, sure, we have a tool, it 315 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:22.480 can maybe help you with some of this over here, but guess what, 316 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:25.400 Here's how you do it on your own and here's how you get better at 317 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:27.599 it. And we feel like as long as we're doing that and we're giving 318 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:33.160 demandin marketers like content information, our experiences were very authentic, you know what 319 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:36.880 I mean, very transparent with it, and if that helps them, we're 320 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:40.599 but we built trust, we created the relationship and then the hope is that, 321 00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:42.680 oh, when they're ready, they'll know about us, because I've been 322 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.359 kind of following us and we sprinkle things and of course, our content we 323 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:48.759 sprinkle them in like Oh, meditated does this, Depp, they will come 324 00:19:48.759 --> 00:19:52.000 in, they'll set that self, educate and then the last four demo and 325 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:55.000 we see at work, you know, and so that's it's hard to measure 326 00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:57.799 the effect on revenue, but we know across the board and we do have 327 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:02.559 great what what I call it at the top. So basically, like our 328 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:03.799 leaders believe in it. To our leaders believe in marketing, you know. 329 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:07.519 So Gill believes in marketing. Olivia believes in marketing big time, and they 330 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:10.319 don't just say it because they think they need to. And so all those 331 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:14.200 things together really give us the ability to put a lot of weight on this 332 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:19.119 without a ton of direct attribution to revenue. Do you ask customers when they 333 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:22.480 come in how they first discover you? It's kind of like my primary way 334 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:26.519 of kind of gaging where they came from, even though it's always multi touch. 335 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:29.000 But exactly, yeah, thank you. Usually say so like, oh, 336 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:30.599 well, we we found you on Linkedin and then we started listening to 337 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:34.480 the podcast or something. And marketers will they'll offer that up because they know 338 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:37.759 they're trying. They're doing the same thing. They're trying figure out where there 339 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:38.680 are people coming from. Stir like, Oh, I can help you out, 340 00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:41.200 this is exactly you know what I mean. So yes, we just 341 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:44.759 are adding it to our form, though now we actually haven't had it in 342 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:49.000 our form. What we did is we would take all the unattributable demo requests 343 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:52.160 and I would just email them. I would everyone's wall his email and say, 344 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:56.119 hey, market at a marketer. You know, you came in unattributed. 345 00:20:56.240 --> 00:21:00.200 Just would love to understand how you heard about us and how, like, 346 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:02.680 what was the path that got you there? And Man, I got 347 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:07.880 some great answers like paragraphs. Sometimes the only mean like a friend was talking 348 00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:11.000 to my friend like Oh, that's interesting. He told me I should follow 349 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:12.799 one of you guys. Went and followed mark saw this interesting piece of count 350 00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:15.240 you know, they would take me through their whole story and you know, 351 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:19.640 most of the time none of that like would have been seen in a system 352 00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:22.240 and us being able to like dial it up or dial it down. You 353 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:26.839 know, I find that's probably one of my favorite place to look at. 354 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:30.480 I mean we have hub spot and use the reports, but my favorite place 355 00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:33.079 just to come straight from their mouth. Tell me where you found it, 356 00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:37.279 because, especially I know you and us, we're both marketing to marketers. 357 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:40.960 YEP, so they're keenly aware of how they first found yeah, yeah, 358 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:44.079 and a B to see audience. Good luck, right. Yeah, remember 359 00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:48.759 where their first touch was? Marketers tend to remember those things totally. Yes, 360 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:52.200 so, as a broad question to kind of wrap up this interview. 361 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:55.240 Where do you think this whole landscape is going with audience growth? Do you 362 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:59.480 see audience growth becoming more important or staying the same? Do you think it's 363 00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:03.799 buzz? What are your like five year projections on this segment will be? 364 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:07.079 But that was question. I think this is going to be a disruptive is 365 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:11.799 such a like the overused term, but I do think this is disruptive and 366 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:15.880 here's why. So I'm nice to get on a little bit of story. 367 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:19.279 We've got our all in one solutions, right, you got your you know, 368 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:22.880 the Marquett of the big, the big MARTECH players that are like acquiring 369 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:30.519 different niche solutions and like stacking them together. Well, imagine a world where 370 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:37.839 you've got a community and a community is potentially supported by some of the top 371 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:42.359 players in Martek, but these are niche players in the community is actually the 372 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:48.279 thing that can pull in all in one solution together, but with disparate point 373 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:53.759 niche solutions, right, and the community now is the one that's designing the 374 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:59.279 text acts and I do think we're going to see a movement away from all 375 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:03.200 in one platforms. As you know, integrations get easier and people like realize, 376 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:04.400 Oh, I've got a unique part of my funnel in here that I 377 00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:07.400 can only fill with this, and what the all in one solution provides isn't 378 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:11.559 really great at this little thing. And so I think community is going to 379 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:12.599 feed that, you know what I mean? I think community is going to 380 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:17.000 help say, like, okay, I'm not going to trust the vendor when 381 00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:18.640 they say they're better with these three things, but man, if the community 382 00:23:18.680 --> 00:23:22.400 is talking about it and I've got people in there that I trust and they're 383 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:25.920 talking about these four tools together, great, I've got it. And then 384 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:27.720 imagine, like you get a discount when you buy all for you, I 385 00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:30.039 mean like you buy all for together, and these company starts to become like 386 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:33.839 partners. And so I think community is going to be huge and audiences are 387 00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:38.480 going to like feed that and it's going to be the way more people buy. 388 00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:42.440 And so, yeah, I have big plans that are maybe not plans 389 00:23:42.440 --> 00:23:47.200 with plans too, but I I've big visions for like what's going to happen 390 00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:52.400 with audiences and communities all the way to at some point, I'm hoping, 391 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:53.759 you know, we get control of our profiles and we start to say, 392 00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:56.000 like this is what I'm in the market for right now, your I mean, 393 00:23:56.079 --> 00:24:00.000 and like then. We only get advertised like these kinds of things, 394 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:02.240 and that could also be supported by a community even, you know. So 395 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:06.640 community could just be really it's like a bioloschal entity, right, like one 396 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:10.640 little cell doesn't survive on its own. You got a big group of cells 397 00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:14.079 all working together, you know, on something that's got some some legs, 398 00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:15.799 and so yeah, I really think it's going to get big. Jason, 399 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:19.680 thank you so much for joining me on the attention podcast. Working People connect 400 00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:22.720 with you and learn more about metadata. Just follow me on Linkedin. I 401 00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:26.119 think that's the best place you will get all kinds of content, helpful stuff. 402 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:30.640 Yeah, just check out our website, metadata dot ioh see if see, 403 00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.400 if you like what we have. Fantastic. Thanks for joining me again. 404 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:37.680 Thanks, Dam all right, so let's talk about what caught my attention 405 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:42.160 now. Jason is ill called early adopter on going hard after this audience grows 406 00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:48.559 trend, and I thought I really understood the definition of audience until enough people 407 00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:52.839 on Linkedin told me they had very different opinions on what an audience meant. 408 00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:56.599 So it was good to circle back with somebody WHO's really picking up on this 409 00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:00.519 and going after it to find that actually have a lot of the linment with 410 00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:03.880 what Jason is doing at Metadata and, I think, what a lot of 411 00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:07.160 others are doing too. Now. I think when you hear the term audience 412 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:11.279 paired with growth, generally people are talking about an audience that's engaging with your 413 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:15.759 brand regularly and for this show, that's how I'm going to continue to define 414 00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:19.759 the word audience. It's the people who are actively seeking you out, the 415 00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:23.160 people who want to listen to you. They may not subscribe, though. 416 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:27.720 That's the easy way for marketers to measure how big of an audience they have 417 00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:33.240 based on subscribers or followers across different channels, and that's all well and good. 418 00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:36.119 That's how I measure it, but it's broader than that. It is 419 00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:38.440 the people who are actively checking you out. Just like you might not have 420 00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:42.160 them on your email list, but there probably are some websites that you frequent 421 00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:47.640 and are reading from all the time. Yet they don't have an official record 422 00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:51.640 of you coming from or coming to read read the website. Right you're still 423 00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:56.160 part of their audience. You're still engaging with it actively, actively. So 424 00:25:56.440 --> 00:26:00.640 that's how I'm going to define audience for the rest of the show until maybe 425 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:03.559 tell the whole industry takes a turn and says otherwise.